The test servers are hardly a representation of the overall player population. The majority of elder beta testers are experienced MMO players and have been following the game for months, if not years. The real noobs have yet to enter the game. These are the ones who see the game on a shelf at Gamestop and say, “Hey, this looks like fun.” I predict that once the game launches there will be a huge up swing in the number of order players, and a down swing in their overall skill level.

By Oracon on Sep 3, 2008

For a while I’ve actually believed this was going to happen. I’ve always preferred to play the Underdog, however my guild doesn’t feel the same and have decided upon Destruction. I will honor their choice but sometimes I feel that to be a truly good player you must pit yourself against unsurmountable odds and walk away the victor.

By `Zypher on Sep 3, 2008

Interesting however I think it is too early and to make any solid observations on how each side will be. Example: consider a population may be playing the opposite side in PW and beta. Saving the final destination and class for live. Also when playing in beta the level of commitment may also be skewed as it is more research abouj the game mechanics than an on going WAR.

also

“The elder, more mature gamers will likely be attracted to Order because they realize that the realm echoes many of the flaws of humanity and is a very complex representation of good.”

.. ahh .. 39 here and played 4 years Horde in WoW (Orc Warlock) and going to play Destruction in WAR (Black Orc!). I play a good human in real life.. why would I want to do that in game.

By mikejl on Sep 3, 2008

Maybe I’m just crazy, but I’m not really seeing any truth in the Horde R leet line of thought. At least on my server they rarely would have one contender in the PVE race, and their world pvp abilities didn’t exactly scare anyone.

Nor did my forays onto horde servers impress me with how awesome horde players were.

They were alliance guys… but uglier. That’s it. Same petty crap, same noobish bullcrap. There’s a reason Barrens chat is famous.

By toxic on Sep 3, 2008

I played Horde on a PvP server in WoW in the early days. We where HUGELY outnumbered, hugely, about 3 to one in most battles.

What happened? We started to act more as a team. The healers healed, we formed tight units etc.

The Allience? They never had to learn tactics. The sheer numerical advantage gave them a wall of bodies. They just kept throwing themselves at us.

This translated into Pre-X Realm PvP Battlegounds as well. On an equal footing Battleground we would demolish them. Horde PuGs where beating Allience Pre-mades on a regular basis.

I think the basic arguement I’m making is;
Superior numbers of the Destruction is probably promoting sloppy PvP. You don’t need tactics in open RvR that much if you’re outnumbering the opponents to a significant degree.

In addition, the Order players, being outnumbered, are probably being forced to play more tactically which is making them look better.

By Dave on Sep 3, 2008

True.. Bliz made really has both sides of the game semi-evil (or to quote a genus .. the Diet Coke of evil).

I may also be an exception.. as I loved killing villagers and burring houses when I tired Chaos in preview. I guess I am twisted and wacko..but my kids just love it when I try to do my evil laugh while playing.

BTW.. love the site and all your coverage on the game. It’s RSS feed has found its way to my Google Reader.

Go Greenskins!!!

By mikejl on Sep 3, 2008

Being an older more mature player I plan to roll destruction when the game goes live. However once I am able to get into beta I will probably try many of the Order race/classes to get a good idea of the capablities and playstyles of my “enemy”. Perhaps a lot of beta testers are using this time to discover the strengths and weaknesses of the enemy so they can better plan how to crush them when the game goes live.

By Bilban on Sep 3, 2008

1. Bliz did NOT make both sides semi-evil. They did make one side complete good and the other might be stated as “semi-evil” but really its just a different faction that opposes the alliance.

2. In Warhammer, everything fights everything, including its own. In the game, honestly this hasn’t been seen as much because its suppose to be a combined war effort, but read a novel. There is no “good” there is just someone who isn’t currently killing you.

3. WoW populations differed from server to server. To said Horde was “noobs” or alliance was “noobs” is a subjective and almost baseless statement. The balance between the two shifted from server to server. However, regardless of what side you were on you probably thought your side was horrible if you were a solo player. Solo players run into the premades of the other side and… die. The truth? Both sides were completely and utterly saturated with “noobs.”

4. Since this has been the same in EVERY SINGLE MMO I have played ( and I have played alot of them), I doubt it will change much in WAR. You will always be surrounded by “noobs” its the state of the game. This is what groups/guilds/raids/friends lists are for. You find people in the game that you don’t want to stab repeatedly everytime they open their mouth and you keep them around. If you play with a core group of people you WILL enjoy the RvR aspect of the game more. If you do not you WILL notice the swarms of mindless peons doing everything in their power to keep your side from winning.

5. I would venture to say the Ironbreaker’s mechanic allows it to almost single handedly enforce atleast duo level teamwork. There is no destruction counterpart. The blackorc only really buffs himself and the chosen may buff his whole group or debuff a whole group of opponents but not near to the degree of the Ironbreaker.

By Bo on Sep 3, 2008

ever thought that perhaps the destruction player base switched over to order..

not 100% but in the area fo RvR, i was of the impression that me on realm A (server1) as destruction would be playing against the order from say realm B (server2)

but im still not sure of the dynamics of RvR so maybe its server a vs server a everytime..

during my beta time i was able to create order and destruction on the same server..

so maybe during the prelim portion of beta masses flocked to destruction and now they are trying out order.. on the same server cause why bother switching servers.. but like i was saying maybe those folks that played destruction previously got bored winning all the time and wanted to challenge themselves by choosing order aka the underdog..

people like the underdog why.. bragging rights… saying hey when i play X i still win so you suck.. or something to that effect

By Stix on Sep 3, 2008

Huh Stix? Your realm=faction. Servers are servers. You’ll be fighting the opposite faction/realm on the same server.

By toxic on Sep 3, 2008

When WoW came out, everyone was technically a WoW noob right…

By Archain on Sep 3, 2008

Back during the PUG days in WoW PvP, I played Horde in the BGs and we regularly rolled over Alliance, and I mean like 90% win rates. This was also during the time when you had to play every week or lose your rank, so you saw a lot of the same people over and over. Most new people were quickly trained on what was right and wrong.

I think Alliance at that time was suffering from overcrowding. The really good players all teamed up and joined as a premade. That left the rest of the players only playing infrequently (because their queue was much longer) and not able to play with the really good players. Horde could rejoin the queue and be immediately back in the game, it was pretty much the same as a premade.

All of this changed when premades went away, and they removed the rank system and swapped in honor. You didn’t have to play obsessively anymore, and alliance got better over time. It also promoted selfish play in places like AV as people started to honor farm. Totally changed PvP in WoW. Arenas destroyed it.

I guess my point (if I have one), is that the interplay of game mechanics and population unbalance makes it very hard to predict how PvP will play out. My guess is that unbalanced servers in WAR are going to be hard hit, as the less numerous side will get creamed in open RvR, and so will go into instances more and more in order to play on even footing, exacerbating the underpopulation in open RvR even more.

That said, all of this is theorycraft at this point, as so much of WoW’s PvP was done at very high levels and was very gear dependent, and right now most people have no idea what that’s going to be like in WAR.

By Mike on Sep 3, 2008

Noob has multiple meanings.

There is the lighhearted noob; used for people who are genuinely new to a game; or when an otherwise respected player screws up.

There is the pejorative noob: when someone exhibits more ignorance than is really warranted in someone @ that level; who is either too stupid/lazy to learn what they are supposed to be doing in a group, or otherwise just way below reasonable expectations. The warrior who volunteers to tank an instance, but then doesn’t even have a shield. Survival hunters, etc. A group of 3 70’s that get slaughtered by one MS warrior wearing heroic dungeon gear and the Plasma Rats Hyperscythe. Basically the losers who have no excuse for sucking.

By toxic on Sep 3, 2008

I’ll disagree with toxic on one account. Just because words are pronounced the same doesn’t make them the same.

New Player –> Newbie –> Newb.

Noob is a whole different word although the current generation of gamers uses it interchangable they also tend to butcher the english language in general as well as gamer slang. Noob was an insult… pure and simple. It’s generally a player with the experience to know but that refuses to improve. Everyone has met the “No! You’re wrong! I know what I’m doing!” guy that constantly wipes groups and becomes hostile if you attempt to correct them. It has other uses as a jest with an actual experience and skilled player or a catch all word like f@g that a gamer might throw around for no reason.

Newbs should be helped at all times. Noobs should be stabbed rep…. /ignored.

By Bo on Sep 3, 2008

I think your points are pretty spot on. I was actually thinking of the first one before I read it if, for nothing else, I was feeling that same way a bit. I’m probably still going to roll destruction when the head start begins but a lot of the fun truly comes from the challenge. Who knows, maybe I’ll set up an Order alt

By Raegn on Sep 3, 2008

I just visited this site, and I have to say this is one of the best discussions I have ever seen regarding an MMO. Nicely done, and great comments all around.

By Tim on Sep 3, 2008

im in otg and most are playing order currently till launch for enemy research and such. and running around many forums it seems to be a semi popular aproach. i wouldnt worry to much about pops. if u want to play D then do it if not roll O. only ppl that will wrry are those that want to be the low vs high pop players. as said already by many of u i feel that D will turn into horde down the road with fewer ppl. i myself have turned many friends to this game and most are pretty casual. most of them wanted to roll O guys but i told them we had to roll D as thats what i was playing so i agree with most of the stuff said here and im more worried about my class then pop peace

By XBloodBlade on Sep 3, 2008

Honestly,

It all evens out in the end. I agree that initially a lot of the old hardcore elite guilds went order to play the underdog role, but many more went destruction so they could fight those that first joined. There are definite feuds amongst the “elite” guilds that will play out on servers.

In wow we all went horde for the same reason, but listening in barrens chat and Orgrimmar we quickly found out that there were just as many noobs on our side.

By Haeretic on Sep 3, 2008

People always look at the players to explain this, but I say look at the game.

In WoW, a horde player who had three hours for BG’s would spend about three hours in BG’s. An alliance player with three hours to play BG’s might spend one and a half or two hours in the BG’s.

Horde had more practice, hence Horde dominated.

By boatorious on Sep 3, 2008

Old age and treachery will always overcome youth and skill.

That having been said, I’m playing an Archmage. Er… a treacherous one. (Not really. )

By Cedia on Sep 3, 2008

Sometimes it’s simply luck of the draw. During the CE beta and PW I rolled multiple characters on each side to get the feel of how classes/mirrors worked. During the CE, I mainly played destruction toons. Every PUG scenario steamrolled order and our numbers made open field PvP impossible for order to counter-attack. While in the PW, I joined up with 4-5 mmo friends on order and our group typically won the scenarios because we were organized over vent. We only lost when there was a teamstack (a dreaded Nordenwatch battle with 7 enemy zealots and 5 chosen) or because of low ranks against high rank players.

Once the game goes live, I believe things will be more even than we all assume. The entire RvR experience should be like a fast-forward version of survival of the fittest (if it works properly). One side will be bad, but others will be drawn to them for many reasons. They may want lower scenario que times, the role of the underdog, or the hate of winning based on zerging. Those people will organize the bad side to make it better. Soon the server will see a shift in power, and the process will/might repeat.

The only problem with this is that it is entirely dependent on the customer base. Human beings almost always take the easy way out if given the opportunity. Will people be patient enough to wait for their realm to improve? If they have bad experiences will they endure or cancel their subscription? Will they switch sides so that they can be victorious with a greater number of players or will they continue to fight against the odds with their new guildmates?

For the sake of the game, I sure hope we have lots of thick-skinned, stubborn people to give everyone a fun, challenging, and enjoyable realm war.

By Coldtouch on Sep 3, 2008

greenskin SMASSSSHHHHH!!!! waaaaaagh!

By XBloodBlade on Sep 3, 2008

This article started off well enough. It covered what many see as a growing concern for “in the know” destruction players. But at about the halfway point it really just came off as a self righteous rant. Trying to stick with the podcasts (even if they arn’t really say.. virginworlds quality, but definitely not going to bother with any more articles from this site.

By Trevor on Sep 3, 2008

Using your logic, since Order will most likely outnumber Destruction post launch (give or take a few months), then Order will end up being full of n00bs, correct?

I find it hard to judge by this, since people flip-flop during testing what realm they are playing. I know I plan to play Order come Open Beta, simply because I’ve done destruction, found my classes, and don’t want to spoil any more of that sides story and content.

So I think this is a bit of rush to judgment, like many have been doing throughout this beta.

By ScytheNoire on Sep 3, 2008

It’s interesting to see the back and forth about server population. Like most, I hope it shakes out as more or less even so that both sides have a strong chance of developing skilled players. It just mean better fights. I keep thinking that “realm pride” will play a bigger part over time as people get frustrated on servers where one side is being dominated on a regular basis and get motivated to try to alter the equation– with more work, recruiting friends to come on at critical times of the day etc.

It should be interesting to see if a generation of kids raised on this game and otheres like it develop insane management skills and ADD. They would be perfectly suited to a new breed of starup companies based on raid or warband mentalities. They could certainly storm Wall Street and kick the crap out of them. I can only imagine that MBA programs in the future will look like bad internet cafes with the infamous “More Dots! More Dots!” video being shown in class as an example of what not to do.

By Baz Anderson on Sep 3, 2008

I’m a bit down this week and haven’t read all these comments so here’s my initial thoughts - we’re over-egging the pudding. We’re bored cos we can’t play it yet, and we’re over-thinking it.

Some servers will be unbalanced one way, others the other. They claim they made the game as ‘fun’ and that was their criteria to cut out classes and stuff like that. So we really need to go into it only expecting fun, and nothing more.

By arbitrary on Sep 4, 2008

everyone keeps saying that horde was outnumbered in wow..

on magtheridon (Nihilum server) we (the alliance) were outnumbered like 9 to 1

By Trovels on Sep 4, 2008

Trends are just what they are; trends.

I thought it might come to something like this when blogs and polls were saying Destruction was outnumber Order by “a lot”. But I didn’t think the change would come so soon to players swapping to Order b/c they heard they were the under dogs.

I am surprised it happened so early though. I anticipated a trend like this to begin when the game released. I’m a bit glad it happened beforehand b/c it all just leads to more balance. Once Order starts becomming where to play b/c their players are having more success, a gradual trend of players will switch to Destruction to combat the challenge. It will be a constant state of flux, but its very good to hear the flux has started before the live release.

As for the comment about solo = dead, I’m glad to hear it. Coord and coop were the key elements to successfully beating the other two sides in DAoC, not solo, mindless, cowboy, noob behaviour. I’ve ran into enough WoW BG’s as alliance on US Ruin to be frustrated with the number of players who were just in their for marks and didn’t care about winning. In a sense they didnt’ have to; everyone on their team would get an equal share regardless of how well they did. In DAoC this wasn’t the case, and I’m hoping for non-instanced RvR in WAR it still is not the case. You’ll be surprised how quickly the learning curve will drain the noobs out in a system like this. They either learn to play real fast, or no one wants to play with them. There’s no room for noobs in coordinated warfare.

As for picking the Good and Evil out in MMO’s, I think WAR is the first one that gave it to you plainly. Destruction wants everything dead. Order is the beacon of humanity, with its usual corruption. What would be an interesting twist is if parts of Destruction were corrupting it for a ‘good’ purpose.

In WoW, both sides had their good and bad. You’ve mentioned how corrupt the alliance can be protrayed as you can see when you do their quests, but you can also see how noble and horor-bound the Orcs are by quests like the Thrall one in Nagrand and various others. For all intents and purposes, both sides are fighting for their right to live against each other or together against the BL or Northrend’s undead plague.

In DAoC, there was no good and evil, everything was neutral and you were fighting for your country. More like real warfare.

Too say the “mature” or “immature” gamer will choose one over the other is all speculation and leads to nothing in the end. As one blogger mentioned, both sides will have noobs and both sides will have good players and the “mature” and “immature” will follow the exact same pattern. As I mentioned above though, RvR has a steep learning curve, so those willing to coordinate and cooperate are going to survive, meaning the noobs become decent players, or they’re gone, and the immature become mature, or no one’s going to put up with them.

By Larry-Steve on Sep 4, 2008

Oh.. see i thought realm = server not faction.. my mistake.. that’s what i get for not paying attention in class.

so then the whole RvR is basically the same crap as WoW..

are they gunna make it so you cant switch sides??

kinda pointless if you ask me… be a greenie and take city A.. the switch to a stuntie and take it back… wheeeee

or was the ability to swap “realms”/Faction only for the beta and testing purposes??

By Stix on Sep 4, 2008

Heck ya .. whew..

Well that also settles my character slot conundrum..

But going back to the topic at hand, Im just betting the influx of people paired with vets trying new things led to the Order’s recent ass kicking swing.

When the actual game comes out and you actually have to pick a side .. then we will see greenies kicking ass again..

By Stix on Sep 4, 2008

My single largest fear is that the classes were balanced during closed beta (of which I was a part) to ensure open world balance. Since Order was always outnumbered, the view on how effective they were might have been skewed.. Unfortunately if you balance Order to be competitive when always outnumbered, they’ll dominate when the factions approach parity or in fair matches like scenarios.

Since this is exactly what we’re seeing, and since the game is too new to really have experts and noobs, I fear we might have accidentally engineered a slight class imbalance. It’s probably only a small disparity, but look at what a slight imbalance in racial abilities did to Warsong Gulch and Arathi Basin.

Hopefully Mythic can juggle things a little if that’s the case.

By Skarlix on Sep 5, 2008

During the preview weekend I lost all but 1 scenario as Order. It felt just like WoW ally pugs. All the Destruction were max level and we were running around with lvl 3’s. One thing Order has going for them that Ally don’t is the racials aren’t imbalanced.

By Bert on Sep 5, 2008

It all depends on who you are rolling with. Keep in mind you can queue your group, so if you are queueing solo odds are you aren’t getting much organization.

I was playing yesterday with 2 friends over vent, and just that was enough for us to win more often than not. Take that away, and I might be in a scenario with random lowbie noobs instead.

Another frustrating aspect of early game scenarios is the people who are under the false impression that bolster makes them competitive. It sure as hell doesn’t, especially when you are a worthless level 1 magus with just your starting abilities and no gear.

By yohnstoppable on Sep 5, 2008

Another thing I forgot to mention is to not just chain queue unless you are winning.

If you join a game and get crushed, because your team is retarded, then instantly requeue when you get out, then odds are you queued at the exact same time as said idiots.

If I’m in a game where we get beaten terribly, I wait a minute or two. If I’m in one where we cruise to victory, I instantly requeue. Works wonders

By yohnstoppable on Sep 5, 2008

Well.. to be honest i thot about playing order because of the huge number of destruction players and i still might. I love chaos and always have since the table-top game. However since this is a Tzeentch only chaos is out for me as i like Khorne for the sheer brutality. I am not sure what the game designers were thinking but they took out all the good classes within each race. I may simply just play order out of being sick of what they did to the destruction side of things. And order has more to offer. But the whole thing still looks like another version of WOW on order side just differnt faces. So i still play destruction cuz its good to be evil and the look.

By ripthud on Sep 24, 2008