My questions for Mythic’s Warhammer Online
July 12, 2008 – 12:13 pm
I’m not going to lie to you guys. After yesterday’s announcements, my confidence in Warhammer Online and Mythic Entertainment has been shaken. Part of it is because I bought into a lot of the hype surrounding this game and saw it shattered. Part of it is also because these are some core advertised features we’ve been hearing about for ages and I feel as though they have gone back on their word. It’s easy for them to claim the “it’s beta, nothing is set in stone,” defense but I think everyone pretty much thought cities and classes to be so sacred that they wouldn’t be cut entirely from the game (even though MJ said it was a possibility several months ago). Tweak them sure. Cut them? That’s a shock to everyone who has been following this game for the past three years.
No matter how much I talk to other people, read the positive spin, apologies, and reassurances by Mark Jacobs, and try to cool my heels on this topic, there are still a few sticky points for me. Since yesterday there have been thousands of replies to various threads of forums and blogs around the world on this, and I just don’t have the energy to sort through it all looking for the kernels of “truth” that will answer these questions:
Why have they been telling us this game was in “polish” mode if core features weren’t even implemented?
I really began to invest time in the meta game of blogging about WAR since late October of 2007. It had been recently announced that the game would be pushed to Q1 2008 for some big changes due to beta feedback. It was then pushed to Q2 2008 for reasons cited as being “polish.” For the majority of MMORPG fans, polish means all the core features in implemented but need refinement. Another delay to Q3 2008 was announced, and again the reason was cited as being “polish.”
Why have they been telling us all along that the release date is set in mud and that they won’t launch until the game is finished, and then cut major features to apparently make launch?
For a good long while now, they have been setting themselves up to the standard of Blizzard with regards to taking as long as they need to get it right before launching. They would argue that their stance is their own on polish before release, and rightly so, but the fact that it aligned so well with Blizzard’s mentality on product development certainly didn’t hurt their case. I’m sure they’ll release a polished product, but to me, it will always be a polished incomplete product with these cuts. Here’s hoping they are patched in quickly afterwards.
What is beta for if not to test out something like this?
From VN: We expect over the months post-launch we will learn a lot about how our cities actually function in a truly LIVE environment. We will apply these lessons to the new cities and look at possibly rotating cities in and out of RvR to not only spice up the RvR experience but to allow us to tweak and improve the older cities. This will be both in the short- and long-run to be a major win for the players.
Is this the drawback of phase-by-phase focus tests in beta? Sounds to me like you could easily test this out in a LIVE environment if, you know, it was in beta. Then again, maybe this just goes back to my previous point of them cutting content they can’t properly test in order to make a release promise.
How are they going to address racial balance with four classes cut, especially in the early game?
In the Empire vs. Chaos pairing, Chaos has four classes and Empire has three (missing a tank). In High Elf vs. Dark Elf, High Elves have four classes and Dark Elves have three (missing tank). In Dwarf vs. Greenskin, each have three classes but are missing their melee DPS.
The obvious solution here is to promote teamwork amongst the factions but that strays far away from their racial pairing model and more towards the endgame. They can probably make it work, but I’m not a fan of having to rely on other races to help balance my groups. I wasn’t going to join a race-specific guild, but anyone who was, just had their dreams stomped on (sorry Josh).
Removing four melee classes also introduces an imbalance of ranged classes. There are now more RDPS in the game and it will be harder to deal with them.
When will these missing pieces be patched in?
Are we going to hear more of the same old “when it’s good and ready?” That’s a fair answer, but we’ve also heard that if they can’t get these classes working they will scrap their concepts altogether and work on something else to fill in the missing archetype rolls. How will this affect realm balance and player morale? “Oh yay, I just got my second-choice main to level 30 and you finally patched in the one class I really wanted to play. Now I get to start all over.” I’m guessing they will need to continue beta throughout release to test how their new classes will work with the established ones. Having previously experienced new classes brought into the DAOC in expansions, in almost every case there were massive buffs and nerfs. Those classes were “tested” too. Hopefully, they improve upon that.
Why is another delay completely off the table for discussion?
Is it Wrath of the Lich King? Is EA breathing down your neck? Shareholders? Given the controversy surrounding these cuts, I think you’d have fairly widespread community support for another delay? Maybe you think enough is enough? At the end of the day, if these cuts can be patched in effectively, I don’t think it will be the end of the world. You’ve said it yourself… making big changes across the board is way more difficult to do in a live game than it is in beta. From my perspective, why not just extend beta and make this happen?
I’ve also hear that no matter how much money and manpower you throw at these issues, you’d still not be able to get them into the beta in a decent amount of time. That comment doesn’t inspire much confidence in a post-release scenario either.
One final remark…
I’m heading back over to Warhammer Alliance to reread Browncoat’s “magic” article and Mark Jacobs’ response to find out if my impressions have changed given these announcements.
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18 Responses to “My questions for Mythic’s Warhammer Online”
Blizzard talks about releasing games when theyre complete, but this wasnt the case with WoW.
By Juhani Nopanen on Jul 12, 2008
I’ll toss my 2 cents on some of those questions, because some of them sound like you are misinterpreting what the announcements said or what mark said in his interview:
- I think they have known for a good while that they weren’t going to go with 6 cities and 24 classes, they were just waiting for a right time to come forth with it. Hence, they were polishing all the other content, to make up for the lack of some content. Quality over quantity type deal i suppose
- Where does he say the cuts are to make their “release date”. Mark even says that they could have put them in, but that it still wouldn’t work. Sure it’s easy to take these cuts as a “must make release time window”, but I think there is much more to it than that.
- Live is a whole different ballgame than beta. You can’t truly test how things will work live, until it goes live. Beta helps, but Mark even goes on to say live is a whole different game.
By james_taylor on Jul 12, 2008
I sat for probably a good 2 or 3 hours watching the WHA discussion thread progress. Seeing the cycle of grief play out in such an accelerated manner across hundreds of people was a fairly interesting experience. Personally, I think I still may be in shock.
I’m with you on the shaken confidence bit, though. One of the more interesting feelings that came about on WAR’s Black Friday was the thought that, as you pointed out, Brownie’s “Magic Show” article now certainly has a new meaning. I’m pretty curious to see if the mods and/or devs ever revisit that topic in light of all that has happened. Some say MJB owes Brownie an apology, others say the announcement completely reaffirms MJB’s response to the article. I’m not sure, personally.
Having pre-ordered the CE myself, I really need to start moving towards the acceptance phase now, I think. Cognitive dissonance, anyone?
By Belial on Jul 12, 2008
I think the real news is the fact Jacobs told that it was better to tell us now than _in 2 months_.
Now we know!
By Juhani Nopanen on Jul 12, 2008
Thanks for the feedback.
In reference to him not saying we are cutting X to release on Y… I am merely interpreting things here.
He says there is no way they could thrown enough money or manpower at these issues to get them ready. Fine, but you can invest more time. Unfortunately, doing so would lead to another delay, so if this game does release in Q3 2008 without these features, I will still stand by what I said.
They cut these features to make their schedule. If they didn’t cut them, they wouldn’t release on time.
By Snafzg on Jul 12, 2008
I can’t argue that Juhani, you’re right. It’s better to know sooner than later, but it still doesn’t change that they aren’t delivering what they set out to do.
I am only being critical here because any WAR fanboy would jump down the throats of Blizzard or Funcom for not delivering what they set out to do. Why can’t we be objective when it comes to our baby?
By Snafzg on Jul 12, 2008
I also added a bit to the above article about the disparity between ranged and melee classes now. Will they dominate? How can Mythic mitigate against this?
By Snafzg on Jul 12, 2008
I will admit that when I woke up and found out this was the announcement mark was going to make, I was stunned. How could they do this????
Since Im not in beta I cant comment on it, but Snafzg since I know you are, you need to take a look at the game and ask yourself are you still having fun. Im not suggesting you answer here =P, but to me that the major deciding factor in all of this. Reguardless of what classes are in or what cities are in it comes down to that.
Also, I would rather them put out cities that are full of life like the main ones, and have the missing classes be fun and exciting, then to be disappointed by their lackluster forms.
Sorry for the wall’o'text but I’ve been thinking on this a lot from yesterday. Who knows though, I could be way off. I too have been burned in the past by vanguard and horizons and others, but im willing to take the chance again to get into what I think is shapping up to be a really good game.
By Cellal on Jul 12, 2008
Snafzg, I think its still to early to make any calls. We still got E3, Comic Con San Diego, PAX and other conventions coming up. So I’m sure they will announce some more news. Now, I’m not in beta and cant remember if you are or one of your podcast buddies. But, I would rather Mythic tell us the bad news now so we can get over it and look foward to any good news in the next month.
So dont let this discourage you from WAR or keep writing for your blog on WAR. You have been doing a really good job with the news.
By Aplex on Jul 12, 2008
What I meant with my last comment wasnt just stating the obvious, but trying to share the fact that they made a clear hint about the release date ;p
2 months from here.
By Juhani Nopanen on Jul 12, 2008
Heh, I guess that supports a Q3 2008 launch then.
I just want to repeat what I said in my other post that I don’t believe these missing pieces will be game-breaking. However, I’m certainly not happy they are missing.
By Snafzg on Jul 12, 2008
This maybe of topic, but I’m curious to know if the tier 4 fortress for the 4 CCs that are being put on hold will make it into lanuch? Cause that would give players more content to do once they get level 40 with the armor sets until they get the next CC pairing in.
By Aplex on Jul 12, 2008
I think their goal is to require one side to control at least two T4 zones before unlocking a city for capture.
So, as things stand now, you would need to capture either the GvD + EvC zones or DEvHE + EvC zones to unlock Altdorf or IC for capture. That’s how I’ve heard it explained to be by several others anyway.
By Snafzg on Jul 12, 2008
Hmm… 2 months, September 23rd seems to fit that.
You know I called it on my blog, if it does hit that day, someone owes me a cookie. A big one.
Really all these cuts affirm is that the game IS SHIPPING SOON. I know there are other reasons, and the reasoning MJ has about the cities to me sounds fantastic. I hope they’re right.
But really, despite losing 2 classes I was really interested in (but mind you never played so oh well), it just tells me that I’d better be ready for WAR in late September.
I’m more stoked now than ever.
By JoBildo on Jul 12, 2008
Good points, Snafzg. Those are the major questions I have as well. I am more upset about the cities than the classes. I agree it will be a pain for someone to level those other clsses when they are added (if they are added?). But dropping out the cities is like WOW coming out without Stormwind AND Ironforge. Ouch.
- Dave, er, I mean singlmalt.
By singlemalt on Jul 12, 2008
In response to:
“Removing four melee classes also introduces an imbalance of ranged classes. There are now more RDPS in the game and it will be harder to deal with them.”
I think you and others who have made this point need to remember that Mythic didn’t somehow erase all the players who would have played those classes. Sure,some of them will switch archetypes, but many (most?) pick a class based in archetype. Those who like to play tanks will most likely stil play a tank. Those obsessed with DPS and who enjoy mixing it up in melee will most likly pick another MDPS.
The number of available ranged vs melee class choices will have very little impact on the number of each played.
Also, you point out Blizzard’s standard of polish, but any early WoW follower can point out a number of things that wer supposed to be in at release and weren’t. It’s not like Mythic is the first company to drop stuff in beta, they were just premature in releasing info that wasn’t 100% ready.
If they’d kept things a little closer to thier vest, people would be less disappointed but criticize them on lack of info.
By One-Eyed Jack on Jul 13, 2008