WAR vs. WoW - Expansion Philosophy
June 30, 2008 – 9:59 amLet us move beyond the back-and-forth of whether WAR can actually overcome the WoW juggernaut and dissect a really great interview Tobold did with WoW Lead Producter, J. Allen Brack, where a big topic was Wrath of the Lich King and future expansions.
Obviously, there are some unknowns with WAR because the game has not even released yet, but we have heard whispers in the community of “planned content” and “already working on the first expansion” and we can hope they carry over the best parts of their expansions from DAOC.
This is by no means a fact-proven comparison because each of these producers might say one thing and do something else entirely, but it is based on what has been said in the public forum
WoW’s expansion philosophy
- Goal is to release one expansion per year (in practice, they’re on track to release one every two years if WotLK launches Q1 2009)
- Don’t plan more than one or two expansions ahead (work on one, brainstorm the next). Their IP is weaker than GW’s, so it’s hard to predict whether or not they’ll run out of ideas soon (they currently have no idea of what will be in the expansion after WotLK)
- Want to give users the best experience possible, regardless of how long it takes
- New classes are strategically implemented (there’s a general lack of tanks in WoW, so they made the new hero class a tank - that also fit really well with the lore of Northrend)
- Looking for ways to speed up the level 1-60 game for players tho start a new character or install the game for the first time (ideas include enhanced XP rate gain, mounts at earlier levels, and even starting a new character at XX rather than level 1)
WAR’s expansion philosophy
- Have not stated goals for expansion:year ratio, however, they are already working on the first two major content patches and the first expansion. I predict an intention of one expansion per year but it may prove differently in practice.
- Hard to say whether or not EA Mythic has a roadmap for future expansions, but the Warhammer IP is firmly established, so they’ll have a very rich history to work with
- Quality over quantity - same as Blizzard
- Based on their model of archetypes and class mirrors, new classes will easily fit within the established design and since the IP for WAR is established, and they work so closely with GW on all things, lore will likely support the new classes
- Want to avoid speeding up the early game because of vertical expansion (e.g., If they were to add a level cap increase, they would eventually be forced to speed up the earlier levels to avoid one massive grind from 1-XX. They want to avoid this entirely, which makes me think they will focus more on horizontal expansion, rather than vertical - but again, you never know)
Mark Jacobs has stated that he realizes the mistakes Mythic made with the expansions of Dark Age of Camelot, specifically Trials of Atlantis. He really wants to avoid these same mistakes in WAR, which is good news for everyone interested in this game.
Based on Tobold’s interview and what we know about WAR, what do you think about all this? One thing Syp mentioned really rings true to me. Based on Mr. Brack’s responses to Tobold, WotLK may not be as near to release as we previously thought. It’s currently in alpha and he says he’s not happy with where they’re at. This is good news for all of us fearing the potential of a head-to-head release.
Let’s hope EA Mythic can stay on track and release in fall 2008 (even late fall is okay).
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19 Responses to “WAR vs. WoW - Expansion Philosophy”
It seems to me WOW tried to appease everyone and nerfed/buffed the classes to stop the bitching. Giving the alliance the ability to play shaman and giving the horde the ability to play pally was a bad idea. WOW speeding everything up to get you to the expansions earlier seemed to be a good idea to a point, but now the ability to get a mount earlier, etc. just seems a little excessive to someone who played so long to get a mount and struggled (time-wise) to get to level 70.
I actually just wrote a little something over at at War Noob about how the classes in WOW no longer have anything unique about them. All the WOW classes since TBC seem to be morphing into “tank” “healer” or “dps” and what made a class fun and different has now largely disappeared. I hope WAR does not fall into the same trap.
By dave on Jun 30, 2008
You don’t think Blizzard has mapped out the next five expansions? I mean, they may not know all the piddly details, but I’m pretty certain they’re a long-range planning company.
I think with established systems — renown, ToK, capital city sieges — there’s a lot of room for horizontal advancement in WAR already. A new zone would equal tons of ToK unlocks, even for the level 40.
By Syp on Jun 30, 2008
I would have thought so too Syp, but this changed my mind:
That’s from the lead producer, the guy who is in charge of expansions.
Yeah, I definitely think the setup for WAR is definitely more horizontal-friendly than WoW.
By Snafzg on Jun 30, 2008
What were the problems with ToA? I quit DAoC before that came out.
By Travis on Jun 30, 2008
ROFL - Wow, I started answering your question Travis and the reply was so long I felt it was deserving of its own post! I could bitch about ToA for ages and I don’t think a comment would do that justice!
Stay tuned, I’ll have my formal reply shortly!
By Snafzg on Jun 30, 2008
I’m loving the thought of getting expansions with no level increase. That way the dungeons from the start of the game don’t become to trivial because they are so low level, just easier based on the near X-pacs gear drops.
I think WoW is going to be looking to see what MMO’s are coming out now and what they bring that the players really like. Just look at what they are possibly taking from WAR, and it isn’t even out yet.
By Brotik on Jun 30, 2008
Blizzard has an open ended IP, giving them a huge advantage as to what to decide to do next. This allows them to cater it more to player response and requests, etc. If WAR is going to be confined by the lore then it will fail.
By Machineman on Jul 1, 2008
Machineman old friend, have you taken a peek at 25 years of lore, they can appease whomever they want several times over… confined and the WAR lore should never be used in the same sentence.
By Silverbow on Jul 2, 2008
And to add onto Silverbow’s rebuttal:
WoW has some decent lore as well but two expansions in, I believe they’re starting to test its limits. What’s next? Kil’Jaeden and Sargeras as the final bosses?
After that, what’s next?
Want to make something up? We’ve seen how long Blizzard takes when developing expansions around known lore. How long will it take them if they start making up ideas from scratch?
By Snafzg on Jul 2, 2008
The big difference is that WoW keeps giving things people have to grind for and lots of vertical expansion (boo). WAR will simply add more content horizontally if they stick with their DAOC expansion philosophy (which worked well overall).
In my opinion, people (including WoW players) are sick of reaching level cap, grinding for gear so they can grind in a dungeon so they can grind in ANOTHER dungeon, that they’ll be pissed with the new level cap and having to do it all over. I may be wrong.
Mythic’s philosophy (taking DAOC as the precedent) shows they’re more interested in horizontal expansion - no new level caps, increased world areas, new content, new storylines, new races, new classes. If they’ve learned from ToA, and I can’t see how they couldn’t have given how horribly received it was, WAR will deliver really nice, small-scale horizontal expansions. You don’t have to reinvent the game with an expansion - just expand the world a little and add some novelty.
WoW went too overboard with BC. DAOC had the perfect scale of expansion content with Catacombs, Darkness Rising and then Labyrinth of the Minotaur. SI, the first expansion, added 100% more game, and ToA turned DAOC into a smash-your-head-against-a-wall grind-fest.
Sometimes, making a big mistake (aka, ToA expansion) provides an essential “Ah ha!” realization that positively influences future decisions and endeavours (like WAR).
/rant
By Rafe on Jul 3, 2008
^ What he said!
By Snafzg on Jul 3, 2008
you could not be more right on the subject of level cap. I for one am really fucking tird to get all the maxed out gear to go to a dungeon to get that gear to get another set of gear to run another fucking dungeon. also if as you can see yeah south park did a wow skit but the names they used wold be reported.
anotehr subject thak makes wow so gay and compared to runscape that is G rated. Kids cuss now days and allot of the players are in their 20-30s so they get really ticked off for being reported for cussing. I hope Wharhammer and AOC destroys WOW
By tyranney on Jul 4, 2008
WarMongers finally posted an interview we did with Bob Mull at Origins. We covered future expansion in it a considerable amount. Not only future expansion, but how a increase in level cap would make all accomplishments seem trivial and such. You can check it out on the WarMongers site or on YouTube.
Main thing to keep in mind is Josh Drescher even stated that they built the core game to last 5 years. And yes, they are already working on expansion. Basically, we should always be playing catch up in WAR.
In WOW’s defense, which you will rarely hear from me, they have been successful at what they have been doing. And that was do largely to the fact they did a great deal of preplanning on the market. They maximized the types of PCs which could run their game, giving them a huge spread of potential players. Honestly, the only thing going to bring WOW down is Blizzard. The only way I could see them doing that would be trying to make WOW more of a PvP balanced game.
Oh and what was the problem with TOA? The exact inverse of what I stated above. They took a PvP balanced game…and made it WOW. Perpetual grind for loot and abilities that were so grossly overpowered they had to be nerfed to oblivion to bring them into line.
WAR is dead on for success. Mythic is back to doing what they do best. Not only did they take the best of previous games, they actually came up with new ideas. And their RvR is the most successful PvP system to date. They are making the game with the intentions to hit a mass audience. And they plan to release when finished. And while people worry about them getting an equal amount of accounts as WOW, Mythic is not. It wouldn’t even take 250,000 accounts to make profit. That is called success and that number is so easy to hit it’s stupid.
What really gets me is, we the fans seem to have this morbid fascination with the death of WOW. Even WOW fans will be the first folks on my WAR sites, saying “This game will never kill WOW.” I never said it would. I have no idea why it has to. I can lay odds on the fact though that in the near future, there will be plenty of people who will have both a WOW and WAR account, and they will live happy fulfilling lives.
Snafzg, I didn’t link those videos, I will leave that to you. If you need the links just shoot me an email.
Take care Greenskins.
By Osyshnir on Jul 5, 2008
Thanks Osyshnir! I just finished part 1 and noticed that when asked about level cap increases, they still didn’t give a firm yes or no answer. Still vague. Ugh, I don’t care if increased level caps are “built into their design for five years into the future.” I don’t want them. Period.
Here are the links:
Part1 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ue9-c4b9Dn8
Part2 - http://youtube.com/watch?v=Mja9dblQsrU
By Snafzg on Jul 6, 2008
I gotcha Snafzg. I will most likely be at Chicago GamesDay. I will pressure them for a direct answer there for you.
By Osyshnir on Jul 7, 2008
Woohoo!
By Snafzg on Jul 7, 2008