Mechanical Quickies #1 - Kill Credit
June 24, 2008 – 9:33 amThis semi-irregular series of quickies will deal with tiny morsels of game mechanics. Mechanics are the nuts and bolts of an MMORPG - the parts that make up your overall gaming experience. I’m not going to tell you how they work in beta, because that would be breaking the NDA! I will, however, tell you how I’ve seen them work in other games and share my ideal for how I hope they’ll work in Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning. Publicly available knowledge about WAR is also fair game.
Today, I want to examine something I overheard briefly addressed in episode #3 of Warhammer Geek’s Podcast of Reckoning: Kill Credit.
This concept is pretty simple: getting credit (xp or items) for something you kill (player or monster). Orlock, Svoald, and Wrenn agreed that whoever “tags” the target with damage first, should get the full credit because it was the most fair way. I have to disagree.
Why can’t we share both the kill credit and the rewards? Let’s say five random, ungrouped people are camping the spawn for some NPC because the need a trinket he drops for a quest. Would it be better if the first guy to hit him got all the credit/rewards and the four remaining people were forced to wait for a respawn or would you rather everyone who did damage to him share the XP and be able to loot his corpse for the item? I vote for the latter.
This solution may not promote grouping, but if these five randoms weren’t grouping to begin with (as is usually the case), what’s the difference? Also, it’s not like this is some fresh, new concept. Public quests in WAR will work this way to a point. The more you contribute, the more influence you’ll receive and it won’t matter if you’re grouped to share influence. It worked the same way with RvR in DAOC. If two people killed an emeny player, it wouldn’t matter if they were grouped; they would share the Realm Points based on contribution towards the kill. We know it will work this way in WAR too by deducing that healers can gain renown by healing allies in combat.
I realize most MMOs want PvE to be a long and grindy process, but if they’re already taking steps towards contribution-based rewards in RvR/PQs, why not take the next logical step and bring it into regular ol’ PvE? What’s there to lose? Player frustration, wasted time, and boredom? Hmmm, sounds good to me!
To address, what I believe may be a barrage of outcries against this concept due to “kill stealing,” let me say this: the days of how we used to gain experience in older MMOs are gone. Quest-driven XP is the way of the present (CoH, LotRO, AoC, etc.), as made popular by WoW, and will continue to be so in the future until someone can invent a better model. These games may not stop you from picking a camp and grinding it out for hours on end, but it won’t be the most efficient way to progress from 1 - XX, and therefore, people will continue to stray further away from it (unless they’re farmers).
Related Posts (auto-generated)
- Mechanical Quickies #2 - City Capture
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- Bo’s Balancing Act (Part 2): Tank vs. Healer vs. DPS
- You CAN have everything…
- Weeks to go and I still can’t decide…
19 Responses to “Mechanical Quickies #1 - Kill Credit”
The problem with shared credit is that it’s open to griefing. Want to piss somebody off? Follow them around tagging their mobs and ensure they are getting less exp and cash per kill.
By unwise on Jun 24, 2008
But like I said, since most progression is quest-driven these days, that isn’t a very effective use of their time (and it doesn’t really hurt you much since the kill XP is about 1/10+ of what your quest XP will be). In terms of drops, you’ve probably noticed that the best gear usually comes from quests too aside from a few random items with a 1-5% drop rate.
Plus, if someone continues harassing you, there are ways to deal with it (filing an appeal).
By Snafzg on Jun 24, 2008
Kill credit isn’t just about XP and item rewards. If there is no sole ownership of the corpse, then who has the right to Salvage it, or Butcher it? Who gets the magic item that can be Auctioned or Disenchanted?
By CoS on Jun 24, 2008
That’s true, but isn’t it also open to exploits? Just wait for someone to almost kill a mob and then get a few hits in to guarantee a bit of XP and cash? Sure, it could be a fairly minor amount, but it’s still acquired at the expense of someone else’s effort.
That saying, I agree that it would be nice in terms of lootable quest items. Nothing worse than waiting for a boss to spawn and hoping that you manage to tag it before someone else.
By unwise on Jun 24, 2008
Those final remarks are indeed exploitable so let me amend by saying:
The amount of contribution to the kill determines who will get the most out of it. E.g., If you do 55% damage and someone else does 45%, you’ll get 55% of the XP and the corpse will be yours to do with as you please (regular loot and butchering). Any quest items, however, will be shared to both contributors.
The math can be worked out for healers as well (contribution for healing) so that it’s not just fair for DPSers.
The main argument I’m trying to make here is that I hate waiting for spawns on stupid quest mobs. Some guys spawns once every 5-10 minutes and there’s a lineup of people waiting to tag him for the credit. Ask them to group and they turn you down. There should be a mechanism that deals with this flaw in the system imho.
By Snafzg on Jun 24, 2008
I also want to reiterate, if someone is continually adding onto your targets, you can appeal them to a CSR.
But think about this… If you ARE grinding and some jerk keeps unwantedly assisting on your targets, this system still rewards you fairly. Let’s say you’re both doing roughly 50% damage each… well, you might be getting half XP per mob but you’re killing them twice as fast which equals out in the end (until the camp is completely killed and you have to wait for respawns anyway).
By Snafzg on Jun 24, 2008
Play Rohan online to see your idea working. And tell me how funny it is to see the mobs of your healer stoled from Ranged DPS chars.
By Lapetra on Jun 24, 2008
I think Kill Stealing is always, always a bad thing in MMOs and should be spanked like a bad, bad donkey mKay? But I’ll withhold final judgment until I see how Mythic incorporates this into PQs. Fun article!
By Syp on Jun 24, 2008
I see what you’re saying, but imagine a low DPS tank has just spent a minute or so whittling down a mob, and then along comes a ranged DPS to unleash their best nuke and sap the last 30% health. The ranged DPS is going to get a disproportionate amount of credit for very little risk and very little effort.
Sure, you can imagine a system where kill contribution is measured fairly, but are you ever going to be able to hit the sweet point of absolute fairness? Something that everyone agrees on? You can understand why most MMO developers just settle for simple tagging.
Saying all that, Public Quests will apparently use generated aggro as a measure of contribution, which might work well over longer periods and multiple mobs.
By unwise on Jun 24, 2008
If another player wanted to help me kill a mob after I tagged it, that would be just fine with me. I could save my mana and my cooldowns if someone else wanted to help me kill “my” mob. I don’t have a problem with him getting some of the credit for the kill. My problem would be if he shared the loot. This would really annoy me.
For example, in WOW, there were always a ton of people at the elemental plateau looking to kill the fire elementals to get the motes of fire drops. If someone helped me kill them and got some of the credit, again fine. But if I was there, it was for only one purpose - to get the drops. If someone else had a chance to get the drops by helping me kill a mob that I tagged, I would be very pissed off.
By dave on Jun 24, 2008
Hmmm, the loot bit seems to be the stickiest issue for most people and I agree, it would take a lot of behind-the-scenes effort to ensure loot was fairly distributed, but I still stand by my opinion.
To be honest, I’m not the kind of guy that adds on to other people’s fights. Even in RvR, I’ll stand and watch a fight between two people if they were already going at it before I arrived. If the person asks for help, I’ll join in, otherwise I’ll grab my popcorn and cheer for “the good guy.”
But still, I can’t help but play devil’s advocate here. If I can share PQ influence with you as well as renown from RvR, why can’t I tag-team (ungrouped) in regular ol’ PvE (if the loot issues can be balanced)?
I think that would really help from a questing angle - even if it becomes more complicated from a “farming primals” angle since modern MMOs are swinging more heavily towards questing these days.
By Snafzg on Jun 24, 2008
Comparing PQs to MOB stompin isn’t fair.
PQs take place within a defined area, Mythic has stated that the number of factors in determing contribution is greater than hate/aggro, dmg/healing, or time spent participating.
I don’t see how you can effectively transfer such a complex system, in a fair and meaningful fashion, to the killing of one solo MOB. Even in PQs, your overall ‘end of PQ’ bonus only increases your roll, it doesn’t garuantee you’ll get the highest roll.
By CoS on Jun 24, 2008
The influence gained in PQs may not guarantee you win the rolls, but it does add up over time, guaranteeing you earn an item from the influence vendor for that chapter.
I’m not suggesting we make all quests in the game PQs, merely that the cooperative nature of how they’re completed be applied across the board. If I add on to someone’s kill by throwing much-needed heals his way, then I should also get credit for killing that mob. If I’m participating in the kind of quest where I need to kill a single special mob and ten people are already camping the spawn - none of whom want to group with me - then why not make it easier on everyone by giving quest credit for everyone who participates in taking it down?
The only issue I see here is the loot one, which I hopefully addressed clearly enough in previous comments.
By Snafzg on Jun 24, 2008
I don’t like the idea of your share of the loot or XP being based off the amount of damage you do, I’d rather go with the ‘who gets the first hit model’.
Star Wars Galaxies is based on who does the most damage regardless of who started combat. This has burned me so many times - enough to frustrate the hell out of me.
Example: Out hunting Krayt Dragons, in the early days we’d sometimes spend an hour or more just looking for one to kill. Start fighting the thing, get all the aggro then someone comes along and out damages you and all that time and effort is lost. The biggest difference between your model and SWG is that in SWG the person doing 51% of the damage or more got 100% of the loot, I don’t recall the XP split, if any.
But I can see your model working much the same way. That would annoy me enough to not do any PVE at all.
By Blackwings on Jun 24, 2008
In PvE the first to tag should get the credit and all items/loot/etc.
In PvP it should all be based on contribution through damage, healing, etc.
In Public Quests it should be based on contribution.
By Keen on Jun 24, 2008
I agree with Keen.
@unwise: Both systems are open to griefing. During the release of BC melee classes never got quest mobs because people with a ranged instant cast would tag them before they could swing. My mage could run around ice lancing everything as people try to pull it to rake up loot for myself.
Go play AoC. You’ll LOVE it when someone else locks an encounter then the encounter aggros you immediately and you can’t get it. Have fun killing normal mobs and bosses that are locked for a group other then yours but you have to kill it anyway before it kills you.
By Bo on Jun 25, 2008
@Bo - Since both systems are open to griefing, I don’t really think one is better than the other. Therefore, it would be very interesting to see a new game take this approach.
Your comment shows the current flaws, while Lapetra’s show the flaws present in my proposition.
By Snafzg on Jun 25, 2008
The answer is math. Lots of math.
When a mob is under attack, it should record who is attacking it and how much damage they do, how much damage they take, and also healed the attackers and how much they healed and how much they took. Oh, and also who buffed or debuffed, and how valuable the (de-)buff was to the fight.
Then, divide the loot and xp proportionally based on PC contribution to the fight.
That’s not too much to ask, it it?
By Scotty on Jun 25, 2008
Indeed Scotty! They already have such math in place for PQ influence gain and RvR renown gain. I’m not sure how much of a drag it would put on the system if applied to every single PvE creature in the game, but I think it would be worth trying. Grouped PvE obviously works much easier as it’s simply a fair split between all members regardless of contribution.
By Snafzg on Jun 26, 2008